How To Use Agile Project Management To Organize Your Marketing With Andrea Fryrear From AgileSherpas [AMP 066]
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- Information about Agile Sherpas and what they do.
- What agile marketing is, what it focuses on, and what the most popular methodology is.
- The difference between Waterfall and agile marketing.
- How agile marketers prioritize their projects.
- The concept of boundaries and why multitasking doesn’t work. Andrea also talks about the importance of saying no.
- How agile marketers can focus on the projects that make the most impact.
- How to build obstacles and roadblocks into your workflow.
- Tips on using Scrum, Kanban, and Scrumban for agile marketing.
- What you can do first if you are a marketer who would like to start using agile project management as part of your marketing strategy.
- “Limiting our work and focusing is the only way we’re gonna get to the point of doing really good, high-quality work that’s focused on the audience.”
- “Scrum has the best PR agency of any of the agile methodologies.”
- “I would say don’t try to eat this whole elephant in one big bite.”
How To Use Agile Project Management To Organize Your Marketing With Andrea Fryrear From AgileSherpas
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Nathan: Here's the thing, you’ve probably heard about Agile Project Management. At first, it sounds super intimidating. Because let's face it, it's scientifically proven that the forces of change pushing against the forces of resistance make us feel comfortable and compliant with status quo. But if you don't want anymore of those fire drills, if you don't want last minute emergencies from David in Sales for projects he wanted done yesterday, if you don't want messy work flows that don't actually make work flow smoothly, maybe agile is the perfect solution for your busy marketing team. That's why you and I are talking to the smartest person I know who applies agile processes into solid marketing management. Her name's Andrea Fryrear. She's the President and Lead Trainer at Agile Sherpas. You're about to learn what agile marketing actually looks like, how to prioritize your projects, and a handful of different examples to use agile methodologies in your marketing team. I'm Nathan from CoSchedule and this episode is absolutely packed with agile advice, so let's get into it with Andrea. Hey Andrea, thank you for being on the podcast today. Andrea: You're so welcome, I'm really excited. Nathan: I’m excited. Can you just kick this off with talking about Agile Sherpas? What it is that you guys do over there? Andrea: Sure. Agile Sherpas is an agile Marketing training and consulting company. Our mission is basically to make marketing talk a little bit less intimidating. Just helping marketers reform their process by applying agile principles and the agile mindset to the way that we manage our work. We go in and train companies and help walk them through how to get through the process as quickly and painlessly as possible. Nathan: Makes a lot of sense. I’m so excited about this topic. Let’s just start with the basics. What is agile marketing? Andrea: Right. The thorning question there. Agile marketing is not just doing things faster. It’s not permission to change your mind all the time and have no plan. Instead, it’s actually using these principles and approaches that were originally developed in the world of software and applying them in a marketing context. It’s actually pretty rigorous when you get down to it. Lots of different ceremonies or meanings and specific ways of handling work. Scrum is a common one but not the only way to be agile. It’s really more about thinking of your work differently. Small low-risks experiments that you can run and see what’s working and what’s not. Then build on things that are successful and leave things that are not working behind you more quickly. It’s also very focused on the team. The people who are actually doing the work probably have the best ideas about how to make it better and how to communicate with the audience better. Getting them involved sooner instead of just kicking a project over to your graphics team and saying,”Make this pretty.” You bring them in upfront and make them collaborate on the work. Nathan: You mentioned the word there that some of us might not be familiar with. What do you mean by Scrum? Andrea: Scrum is kind of the most popular methodology or approach to agile. It involves these time boxes. We do a sprint that lasts one to four weeks. The team basically commits and says, “We can achieve X amount of work in this amount of time.” Ideally, they are left alone to go execute against only that work over the next couple of weeks, and then they release the work, and talk about how it went, and then make it a little better next time. It’s really about this continuous cycle of releasing new work and then taking on new work. It’s shrinking down the feedback loop. No more quarter-long campaigns where we don’t release anything for three months and then we don’t know if it worked for another three months, that kind of stuff. We wanna shorten that feedback loop and Scrum can help do that. Nathan: We’ve heard about all sorts of project management methodologies and one of them is Waterfall and we’re talking about agile today. I’m just wondering if you can explain, what’s the difference between Waterfall Project Management and agile? Andrea: Waterfall assumes that you know everything upfront and therefore you can make this beautifully precise and detailed plan that will be true until the project is finished. If that actually happened, then great. Then Waterfall will work really well for you. But in marketing, we don’t usually know everything upfront. Things change quite a bit between when we make the plan and when we release the work. In those environments then, a more agile approach where we plan a little bit, do a little bit of work, and then stop and evaluate, then repeat that process a lot of times. Usually, it helps us deal with the volatility and certainty that we have to deal with in our day-to-day lives. Nathan: When you come up with a project plan, it’s kind of just a big huge guess, isn’t it? Andrea: Yeah, it really is. If you make a big guess and you get it wrong, then it turns into a really big mess. Nathan: How do you, agile marketers, prioritize the projects? We all have so much work we could do. How do agile marketers focus? What process do you recommend? Andrea: Agile marketers live and die by their backlog which is basically a prioritized to-do list, and I have a backlog personally that I use to manage my work. A team would have the same thing but it would be the team’s priority. Whenever they have time to work on something new, they take that top item from the backlog and they know the most important work at that moment which means that you do have to have a lot of conversations about the backlog so that it stays current and people are working on the right stuff. Nathan: Just a prioritized list in some ways. Andrea: Yeah, definitely. Then you sort of get into the sticky conversation of what actually goes into the backlog and you don’t want it to get too big because then you’re trying to resort and re-prioritize this list of hundreds of things. It can be difficult to know how specific to get as well because you don’t wanna lay out 150 tasks for one project in the backlog because it’s just messy and noisy. It’s kind of a fine line of giving the team enough information to do their work and not micromanaging them to death. Nathan: One of the things you kind of talked about once you start working on those projects is this idea behind boundaries. I’m wondering if you can explain why it’s important for boundaries to be placed on the work that the team is up to? Andrea: So many reasons. Just the concept of multitasking alone, if we have 10 things that we’re trying to work on, we’re not doing a very good job on any of them. Whether it’s that sprint time box that I was talking about or other limiting practices that come into play when we can get the team to focus and set the boundaries, then they can stop starting a whole bunch of stuff and actually start finishing projects and getting it out the door. One of my favorite examples is if I do an outline for a blog post, and I create the skeleton of the new email drip series, and then I come up with a new social media plan but I don’t actually release an article or send an email or update my social media. Did I actually do anything this week? As far as the audience knows, I did nothing. We have to actually balance what we’re doing and get stuff out into the world, and having boundaries help us do that so we’re not constantly coming to the ‘could you just do this for me really quick’ kinds of work. Nathan: What you kind of alluded to right there is saying no to certain projects or certain tasks or requests. Why is it more important now more than ever for marketers to learn how to say no? Andrea: Really limiting our work and focusing in is the only way we’re gonna get to the point of doing really good, high-quality work that’s focused on the audience. Otherwise, we’re always gonna be a slave to the next deadline and just trying to get stuff out the door which has gotten us into a pretty bad mess at this point. There’s always more that we could be doing. One of my favorite Agile values is to maximize the amount of work not done, really talk about what’s important, and to only do that. To be able to push back sort of gently so you can say things like, “Yeah, that’s a great idea. I’ll put it in the backlog.” Instead of, “No, we’re not doing that.” The conversation is a little bit different.![](https://media.coschedule.com/uploads/Podcast_Andrea-1.png?w=3840&q=75)
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