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Do you work alone, or as part of a content marketing team? Do you have a strong content marketing presence? How do you measure content marketing success? Learn from marketing content engines that do it right.
Today’s guest is Jennifer Pepper, head of content marketing at Unbounce. She describes how to build successful content marketing teams and processes. It’s easy to get mesmerized by marketing technologies, but most marketers focus on strategies and goals to stay organized and productive.
Some of the highlights of the show include:
Eric: Question. What does content marketing look like at your company? Do you have a team of marketers working just on content? Do you have designers? Do you have copywriters? Do you have a project manager making sure you hit your editorial calendars right in the notes? Or do you wear multiple hats and you do it all? Do you not have a strong content marketing presence yet? If you do, however, how are you measuring success? What is your process look like? How do you make sure you publish on time, every time? These are big questions and we want answers.
I think we can learn a lot from those marketing content engines that do it right. We have got the perfect guest. Her name is Jennifer Pepper. She’s the head of content marketing at Unbounce. They have got a fantastic process and content engine going at Unbounce. I want to hear more about it, I know you do. We’re going to break down all those questions.
Jennifer really shares some behind the scenes that’s taking place at Unbounce who are just fantastic at the whole content process. I think you have tons to learn about how they do it. You can apply it to your business. […] I’ll be a goodie. Jennifer’s such a fun guest. My name is Eric Piela. I’m the head of the Brand and Buzz here at CoSchedule and the host to the Actionable Marketing Podcast. We’re going to break down what a content marketing department should look like and how it might operate efficiently. Giddy up. It’s time to get AMPed!
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Actionable Marketing Podcast. I have an awesome guest lined up today. Can’t wait to introduce you to her. Her name’s Jennifer Pepper. She’s the head of content marketing at Unbounce. Jennifer, welcome to the show.
Jennifer: Hi, Eric. Thank you so much for having me.
Eric: Absolutely. It’s great to have you. I think, maybe you’ve been on this podcast. I was looking through it. We’ve done 150 or so episodes. Maybe you’re on a couple years ago. Thanks so much for coming on this show. I know things that probably changed in your career and in your role, perhaps since then, but it’s great to have you on.
Jennifer: Thank you so much. Congrats on so many episodes. That’s great.
Eric: Thank you. I can’t take all the credit. I have a couple of predecessors, but it sure has been a lot of fun to be the host of the show. It’s such a pleasure for me because I get to interview wicked, smart, marketers, like yourself, Jennifer. Just to get to know you a little bit, the same challenges, grinds, opportunities, and moments for rejoice that come with being a marketer, that was the show is really about. I know you’ve got tons of experience across the board whether it be doing some branding campaigns, doing content. I know you held a number of different roles in your career. I think it’d be cool if we just start it off by you sharing a little bit about yourself, Jennifer, how you got thrust into this marketing world and a little bit about your role at Unbounce.
Jennifer: Sure. Technically, I could have gone on to get a PhD and go be “The Dr. Pepper.”
Eric: I love that.
Jennifer: I know, me too. Instead, I love helping SaaS brands execute on amazing content. Together with my team, I’ve created dozens of campaigns for recognizable SaaS brands. I’ve worked on everything from onboarding at one end, to customer research, lead gen, and even brand overhauls as you mentioned. I think it’s the part of me that’s a bit of a producer or the 8-year-old who wanted to be working for Disney. This way I get to make things for our marketing audience, but I got my start working in video and content marketing over at Vidyard, if you’re familiar with them.
Eric: Yeah, I am.
Jennifer: Nice. Now, I’m the head of content over at Unbounce. For any listeners that are unfamiliar with Unbounce, we’re the leading landing page platform allowing you to build and test landing pages without relying on your developers which is super nice. We give you an easy way to drag and drop together what you need and drive conversions without relying on your website which can be difficult to change on the web. I don’t know if you guys are experiencing that.
Eric: Oh, gosh. Never, no.
Jennifer: Never. Not you.
Eric: That’s awesome, thanks for sharing. I’ve got to know, what was your favorite Disney movie growing up then, Jennifer?
Jennifer: I think Toy Story. I just saw number four and I was just like, “I didn’t know that they had anymore Toy Stories left in them but they really did.”
Eric: I haven’t seen it yet, I’ve got a 7-year-old and a 4-year-old. I’ve been waiting to take them to it. On your recommendation, I’ll make sure and get them to see Toy Story. This is awesome. An awesome career, and I know Unbounce is doing some amazing things I can’t wait to learn more about how you’re able to and how you’ve been a part of that growth of Unbounce.
I think in our episode, I really wanted to dive in specifically, as head of content marketing, we’ve really been focusing on what are some of the thought process. I think it’s easy to get mesmerized by tools, even us. Both of us are in marketing technologies, but a lot of what marketers do is really about processes. It’s about how we keep organized, how we stay productive, how we set strategies and goals.
I’d love to hear about, even in your role, I know you lead a team about four or so. What drives your strategy right now at Unbounce? Then, when you landed on a strategy you’re looking to run towards, how do you define goals and measure some of those content marketing efforts that you’re doing, Jennifer?
Jennifer: Sure. This is a huge question so cut me off when I’ve gone […].
Eric: I was going to have a load of large questions, so touché. I’d like to hear your long response.
Jennifer: Cool. Our content strategy is largely driven by our marketing team strategy and needs. And also by relevant content best practices. I know some people fear best practices, but some of them actually tie in really nicely and I’ll get to that. In so far as aligning to marketing strategy over all, the direction of our whole department and where the business is going, really informs the type of content our team can prioritize. I’d like to say, in a perfect world, it would be so cool to solely focus on the demand gen side of content or traditional content marketing AKA grow-your-reach-all-the-time-always.
This is when you can turn on the content machine, so to speak, after that foundation is in place. This is when you would see us run sexy podcast like you guys or do regular video marketing on a cadence and create top of funnel brand shows, for instance. But depending on where you are as a marketing team and a business, I personally found—maybe other marketers listening in will find this—that you might need to look at more pressing content services that require attention. It’s a balance.
For us, this looks like identifying the needs as a department and working on our brand new website like updating the messaging and copy, or creating a messaging for our recent brand refresh which was developed entirely internally versus with an agency. And it looks like developing thought leadership content for product or feature launches. It also looked like receiving new research about our audience and then identifying any obvious new segmented content gaps. These are all a bit foundational content services type things. Depending on the direction of your business, you may find that your team needs to accomplish first before the traditional grow-your-audience-all-the-time-always stuff that makes up that machine.
We try to offset this foundational style stuff with relevant best practices that I know that we need to make time for. For example, so many brands are investing in content, bigtime, but they’re not looking at how to invest in it efficiently, especially insofar as discoverability of that existing content. At Unbounce, we have a literal ocean of content available over 10 years of existence. Our content strategy needs to encompass serving up everything evergreen versus making more things.
A big part of our strategy right now is a library approach to content versus the publisher’s approach. This idea was covered perfectly by the folks over at Animalz who I really admire in their article, Your Blog Is Not a Publication. Maybe you’re familiar, Eric?
Eric: I’m not, but it sounds intriguing.
Jennifer: It is awesome. In other words, all of those brands were told to act like publishers at the dawn of content marketing. We got on that hamster wheel. We created more and more. It is so important to consider content discoverability, how you’re servicing your greatest tips, and keeping them fresh.
This quarter, we’re looking at how we’re going to do this in a library approach and really considering it from the value we want to provide to visitors to this site. What content are they looking for? How are we merchandising it to them? How are we serving up the best of the best in maintaining that library via updates to core content versus neverending creation?
Eric: You talked about the direction of your overall marketing team. I’m assuming there are others. You’re head of the content marketing. What are the other marketing departments then that you’re collaborating and developing this strategy together with other team members?
Jennifer: That’s right. We have a number of different functions in our department. Alongside the content team, we have sister teams. There’s a lot of them. We work with the design team. We also work with a campaign strategy team or unit. We also work with product marketing as well as partnership marketing. I would say, those encompass the big ones. Obviously, our marketing director oversees all of these. They’re quite big teams. It’s aligning with all of them and our capacity versus what everyone can fit into a quarter. We might have assets ready to go, but if no one’s able to design them and make them world-ready to go live, we have to stagger and just make sure everyone is aligned on what are the priorities.
Eric: That makes a lot of sense and I’m always curious to hear about how different companies have their marketing departments structure, what their orgs looked like. I think you got a variety of really strong niche pieces that make up your overall RG marketing department? I’m sure we can go on and on about what each one does and how you work altogether, but it’s really […] around content marketing driving that strategy.
We talked about defining those goals, do you have goals then? I’m assuming you have two layers of goals, higher-up layer, maybe go across the entire Unbounce organization, and then, subgoals for your department. How do you break that out there?
Jennifer: That’s about right. We’re constantly looking at them. I’m looking at them for Q3 and Q4 right now, but I can share with you what they are. Those high level ones that we have, we really want to make sure―this are just part of it, the big ones―visitors understand what Unbounce provides with on-point messaging. This could be on the site as I’ve mentioned before, just make sure that we’re putting out things that the positioning is very very clear.
We also want to attract our target segments with content in our core topic areas. Part of this is creating segmenting content that is difficult to replicate. It’s got to be kickass in some way. It’s got to get reused so it’s got to be fairly efficient. We want to experiment to see if we can regain organic traffic. I say experiment here because I don’t think organic traffic is really the super win that people think it was, at one time, like Google’s really messing with us. It’s still an experiment.
We want to improve discoverability of our evergreen content which I can speak more about if you’re interested. Working like a well-oiled machine with those other teams in our marketing department is an overall high level goal for us. Lastly, we want to become exceptional at multimedia content because we think it’s going to be key in gaining attention of audiences, longterm. I think that, that’s how people consume things in their feeds normally and marketers are trying to come at it from different ways, but we really have to get great at things like podcast, branded shows, and things like that.
Eric: That’s great. Thank you so much. It’s a peek behind the Unbounce curtain. I really hear about what you’re focusing on. One is just good to hear, “Okay, these things may or may not apply to what I’m trying to accomplish.” Whether a listener on the line right now is a content marketer or there’s someone else in the department team or contributor. It’s always cool to hear that. I appreciate you sharing those things. I love that you actually said one of your main goals is to work well with your other departments and teams.
We’ve had a series going on during this podcast called Makeshift Marketing. That’s really where marketers are cobbling together tools and they don’t have visibility across all of their activities and their team members. I think we all know that sometimes the work, productivity, and actually the process of marketing can sometimes get overlooked because we get really engaged on whether it be the next campaign or piece of content we’re creating, or a campaign we have to launch, or the new product feature we have to promote. We don’t really focus on the importance of working collaboratively. It’s beautiful to hear that you do that there. That’s great. That’s obviously passionate to us at CoSchedule here.
Second of all, I wanted to ask you about that content creation process. I know that every team probably has their own unique process that’s out there. I’m just really curious about what works for Unbounce. We talked to a lot of marketers, Jennifer, and we hear that, “I’m under pressure to publish more content in less time.” Sometimes it feels that way. Maybe that’s not the right approach, but that’s sometimes the pressure that marketers feel. Maybe it’s about publishing the right type of content or finding a different cadence.
What works for Unbounce? How do you approach the creation process? Then, the nuts and bolts behind that process? Are you an agile marketing shop? Do you exercise some other project management philosophies in order to accomplish and hit those deadlines?
Jennifer: When we were in a good groove, the content team uses the editorial calendar for the blog and an overall content roadmap doc for a longer-term view of the projects that we work on outside of the blog which I’m sure other marketing teams have. It’s very handy to stop thinking like your blog is the only content that you make. This has worked relatively well for us using Spreadsheets and Google calendar. We’re really, really, lucky at Unbounce because on the marketing team we have a dedicated project manager, her name is Leslie, and we would just die without her. She is so awesome and she wants to keep us on our tasks. But this is very helpful because I can look at the team’s overall capacity in the content roadmap and everybody knows what’s on the docket next or at least I hoped so.
On a quarter-to-quarter basis, because we’re working with so many different teams at marketing, as I’ve said, the promotion, campaign strategy, PR, design, partnerships, et cetera, the size of our team requires that we ruthlessly prioritize, and get in alignment on the projects that we’re taking on. Once a quarter is set, the projects microplanning goes on in the Google calendar, spreadsheets, and on monday.com, and the day-to-day is relatively smooth sailing.
The macro alignment of the department can be very tricky for my perspective just because there’s so many people to align with. It’s doable, but it’s tricky. I think as you’ve said, it’s like, how do you get all the vectors going in one direction.
Eric: You know what, I think, one thing that marketers always deal with depending on what your role is defining what success looks like. We’ve had people talk about KPIs. We’ve had guests talked about just other ways to measure their efforts. Is there something that you employ there at Unbounce that you say, “Okay, this is my measuring stick. This is what I’m going to judge or evaluate my performance”? Maybe you have your annual review with your director of marketing? How do you say, “Okay, here’s what I’ve done. Here’s the impact that I made”? What’s your way of doing that there at Unbounce?
Jennifer: We do look at this on a campaign-by-campaign cadence. At high level, we’re fixing our attribution presently. It’s a lot trickier than marketers give it credit for. We’re looking at traffic month over month to something like the blog, both direct and organic, and seeing how that grows. You don’t want to stay flat there too long, as you know. We also look at how many of our top keywords are in the top first and second position on Google. We want to make sure that we’re maintaining top position for keywords that we are selective about. You don’t have to get all of them, but you got to get some of them that are maybe transactional or informational that you shouldn’t lose.
We’re also looking at organic traffic to all web properties outside just a blog. Are the pieces that were intended as organic getting the traffic that they should be? We look at subscribers, both new and retained. We want to make sure that we’re getting some contacts, we’re getting good marketing qualified leads coming in to support the sales team, and things like that. We look at NTS influence by the blog and other content resources.
This, again, is very tricky when you are in a content function and you’re trying to tell people. It depends on the organization. Some are very understanding, but not every blog post is going to influence NTS. You might be doing a blogpost to influence overall authority on a subject or to rank. The purpose is not to generate new trial starts, is what I mean by NTS. Some will. We typically look at that or we’re working to look at that more closely.
We’re also looking into setting up a poll to better qualify how many visitors to the site understand what Unbounce does and provides―what do we provide―via the quality of our messaging. How clear is that messaging such that people can repeat back to us what we do? At present, listing these makes it seems like I’ve got it all figured it out, but we have a lot of work to do on our content reporting and attribution, as presently maybe other listeners have this problem, too.
It’s a very manual process. We’re trying to bring all of these together. It might not be a dashboard, but at least that when we’re looking at things like Kissmetrics and Google Analytics, that they both say relatively the same thing. It can be quite difficult to get your data all the same thing. That’s what we’re currently working on.
Eric: You can’t see me, but I’ve got a big smile on my face because I know exactly what you’re talking about working with the content team. I know you list a lot of great measurables there, there’s this idea of maybe some metrics are more vanity metrics that make you feel good but don’t say the right story. If you have to measure one or two of those things or put priority in one or two of those things, which ones would they be?
Jennifer: I would say that if I could only pick two to be looking at month over month to start telling me something, I would look at traffic month over month at the blog, both direct and organic, just to be able to see, are we growing or are we flatlining? Staying flat is okay for a while. Seasonality happens, things happen, but year over year, you want to see that growth. That’s the whole idea of traditional content marketing.
I would also maybe be looking at subscribers as an indication of—I’m going to pick more than two here—engagement and whether or not you’re reaching the right people. You can segment your subscribers based on what they’re telling you that they do. Are they part of your target segments? Are you attracting the right people? I do want to caution marketers to look at how many of your top keywords are you first and second positioned for. That’s super, super, important. You should know what your ideal ones are.
Eric: That’s great. Thank you for narrowing it down to at least three. I appreciate that because it is. It is almost daunting to think about all the things you can measure and then figuring it out what are the right gauges to determine your success or not. I think everyone goes, “Okay, well I’m finding success here. I’m not getting success there,” and to your point, maybe some type of content you create will have different impacts in each of those measurables based on that purpose or goal of that piece of content. Really good advice. I appreciate that.
I know beforehand, we talked about how you managed this team of individuals. I think we’ve got a lot of people that are listening right now that manage teams as well or could be contributors to a team. I’d be curious to hear your experience on what the demand to create more content? I always had these deadlines. I’m working towards this editorial calendar. How do you find a way to keep your contributors happy, keep them motivated to make sure that they’re excited about the work? Also, they’re still hitting those deadlines that they need to meet for a consistent editorial calendar.
Jennifer: This is a great question. I happen to be extremely lucky in this regard because the four content creators on my team in-house are a dream. I don’t know how I found them, but they’re a dream. They’re all super self-motivated and they strive for exceptional quality every time. I cannot say enough about Luke, Kelly, Garreth, and Collin, because they make my job super easy.
Mainly, I try to ensure that the content priorities or roadmap are clear so that everyone understands what’s on their plate at a given time and that they can push back if they’re at a capacity. There’s always this understanding that if you’re asked to take something new on, it’s a matter of, what are we giving up to accommodate that new thing? I’m not just going to keep piling it on. Pushback and tell me what we have to give up to take on a new thing if we must.
For hitting deadlines, the team is really rock solid on this. It’s likely due to the fact that we datemap together for large projects and get the buffer time accounted for. This counts if you’re working on a blog editorial piece or a bigger campaign piece, or the website. We look at it all together. We’re always encouraging writers to overestimate the time needed for things. We’ve been lucky to find a groove in this regard. If the team says, “It’s going to take me three days to write a page for the website.” It’s like, “Great. Okay, I believe you. Three days. You could even take four.” But when they say three days now, they mean it. It takes three days in the back and forth, you have meetings and other things, but they’re really good at estimating their own work which is amazing.
I think it also helps that we got a fun place to work where the team seems to generally care and show empathy for one another. It’s very okay to say when you might not hit a deadline. I think that can be all the psychological safety that ones needs when it comes up on the rare occasion. It doesn’t happen often, but if you’re not going to meet a deadline it becomes so much safer when it’s like, “I can let you know two days in advance when it’s starting to look redflag.” That’s really good to have that psychological safety there.
The team in general just has so much fun together. We’re always going out to hang out in our spare time. We might use our professional development budget together. Upcoming, we’re going to head to Content Jam in Chicago. The team’s going to head out together together to that. We’re always hanging out. Even if it’s in small things. People are always doing nice things for one another’s birthdays or someone got married. It’s a great team to be part of.
Eric: That’s awesome. That sounds like you’ve got a great culture there. Out of curiosity, you talked about some of the other teams. Is your team composed of primarily content writers? Is there a video person? I think you’ve said there’s a separate design team. What’s the makeup of your team now?
Jennifer: We have four content creators who focus exclusively on writing content and they’re amazing. Then, on the design team, we’ve got three primary designers on that team. They specialize in interactive design. Some of them are in experiential design. That is run by James Thompson who is our art director. We’ve got a whole two teams dedicated to production.
Eric: That’s awesome. That’s something that’s really worked here for CoSchedule as well. I’m making sure we have a visual component whether it be animated graphics to bring that content to life. Words are extremely important, but also the visual do that. It definitely sounds good. A good team effort going on there.
We’ve talked about […] numbers from episodes. I’m always curious to hear whenever I talk to specific content marketers the idea that it’s becoming a flooded world of content that you’re competing against other brands, the competitors, the community, against everyone. It’s pivotal to be able to find a way to stand out. Our CEO, Garrett Moon, calls it creating competition free type of content.
There are certain things that you’ve done maybe without giving away your secret sauce, of course. Are you experimenting with any types of formats of content ? Or are there certain things you’ve tried to deploy or standards of performance that you’ve done to make sure you’re trying to maximize that reach or whatever is that goal your seeking for that particular piece of content?
Jennifer: We try and stand out with the quality of stuff that we do produce which I realized is optimistic. I do think that we have a fairly good reputation in our market for providing really valuable research pieces that are useful but are still fun to read. In the past, we’ve produced things like the conversion benchmark report for marketers and agencies which is built on proprietary data.
We really look to things that no one else can make. “What is the stat in our industry?” as Andy […] likes to say. Find that is missing in your industry and make that. How might you use your proprietary data to do this such that your competitors can’t make the thing that you made? I really love that.
We try and make what we call in-house as turkey pieces. These are the big rock pieces. We liked to call them turkeys because when you slice up that turkey and make turkey sandwiches all year with it. That’s just common best practice. That’s how our team talks about it. As I’ve said, it comes down to that ruthless prioritization as well because something that hit my mind when we’re talking about the metrics is like, “This metrics are not going to be perfect for everyone.” They’re perfect right now for our department, our place, right now, but they’re not going to be perfect for everyone because everyone should be creating content that makes sense for their business.
A long time ago, the blog got into this group of cadence which actually didn’t make sense. We’re publishing at a frequency and almost about everything willy-nilly. It didn’t tie back to our business. There was only tangentially related to our business. In some cases, that’s a great strategy. In this case, we were not looking at the things that were really important or ignoring the things that were important or not aware of them. At that time, the blog while it had this great cadence, was not doing something very strategic for the business. That ruthless prioritization can sometimes be what’s actually helping you from competitors who may not have a great strategy going.
Our team is in talks of what’s the best thing we can create for a new feature or product launch. Lately, we’re especially keying on developing that multimedia expertise that I mentioned. We’re always talking about creating a podcast again, but we have a brand new way that we would like to approach that podcast so that it’s especially compelling. One of my favorite creators always says he doesn’t want to create anything that feels like homework both for your audience and for you. If we approach a podcast again, the team has some ideas for how it would be a little more like something that you definitely consume in your spare time versus anything that would feel like homework or homework for us to create.
We also launched a successful comprehensive report this year on PageSpeed. I think it’s called the Unbounce PageSpeed Report if you’re looking for that. Upcoming, we’ve got a landing page […] for ecommerce marketers as well as something special coming down the pipe for SaaS marketers. We learned from the creation of each thing how we might approach the next. I think that’s it.
Eric: That’s it. That’s awesome. That’s definitely a lot of thought into making sure that you are very conscious about how do you make that stuff stand out and how do you set that apart. I love your thoughts around the podcast. I think when you approach something it’s good to be really cognizant of why would someone watch this? Why would someone read this? And really putting that skeptical eye to a lot of the things you create. Doing things that no one else can replicate which can be hard sometimes. What do you have? What information can you create, develop, or research that no one else can do, and leverage that?
Awesome advice, Jennifer. I like to end with a question. If you were the host of this podcast, Jennifer, you were in my shoes, and you were interviewing yourself, if you could put yourself in my shoes, what is one question that you would have ask yourself that I forgot to?
Jennifer: That is tough. I might ask what content related events that I’m most excited about that are coming up.
Eric: That’s a good question. What are some exciting events that are coming up, content related, Jennifer?
Jennifer: Cool. I would say, our team is so excited to be attending Content Jam. Are you going to be there?
Eric: I’m hoping to. I don’t have tickets yet, but we’ll see.
Jennifer: That one is in October in Chicago, as I said. It’s run by the Orbit Media team. I’m so excited to go and meet Amanda, Andi, and all the other content nerds.
Eric: They’re so cool. I love those two.
Jennifer: They are. I really like that team. Shameless plug, Unbounce has a conference. It’s our 6th year now and we’re running Called to Action Conference this year in September. It’s all about raising your marketing IQ. We’re looking at all the components that you would normally look out for evaluating your actual IQ, but we’ve changed it for marketers.
We’re looking at spatial ability, in other words, design, language ability or copywriting, mathematical ability—using data and analytics to inform your decisions—memory, in other words, processes—how can you establish great processes as a marketing team—emotional intelligence, and strategic thinking.
All of these things come together to create what we’re calling Marketing IQ. You can learn to up yours with all of these speakers we have hand selected and are coming together at Vancouver, BC in September. Super excited for this. It’s something that we put a lot of effort into over at HQ. It’s really fun to chat with marketers when you’re there, and it’s my favorite event of the year.
Eric: That’s awesome. Very clever, by the way. I love the marketing IQ and I love all that tie-ins. There’s so many good events. We’ll make sure we’ll put a link to your event in there as well. I was just thinking, “Why am I not signing up for at least one of these?” I got Content Marketing World, I’ve got Marketing B2B Forum with […] Marketing Products Jam. There’s another one. There’s so many great conferences. I wish I could get to them all. It sounds like you’ve got an awesome one planned for your business. Like I’ve said, I’ll make sure to put a link in the transcript to make sure people can signup and learn more about that.
Well, Jennifer, thank you so much. I believe our time is up here. I want to thank you and appreciate you for coming on the show today. It’s been really good. Just opening the book at Unbounce and getting to hear about what processes, what practices, what measurables, and all the nerdy things marketers love to think about there at Unbounce. Thanks so much for coming in this show. I appreciate it.
Jennifer: Thanks, Eric. It was so fun. I really appreciate you having me.
Eric: You bet. Take care now.
Jennifer: You too.
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